Here are followup articles to this one, from newest to oldest:
- Warwick Police Pass My Case Up to Bucks County District Attorney, No Charges Filed Against Me Yet 13 Jan 2010
- Filed Complaint with Warwick Police (video) 12 Jan 2010
So I was out at lunch with classmates from a pistol instructor course this afternoon. As usual, I open carried my Glock 23. I ordered a sausage parm sandwich and was filling up my 20 oz soda from the fountain when the guy in the next booth turned and asked if I was from around here. Yes, I answered. Did he know me from somewhere? No. This was getting creepy. I didn’t answer him.
Who ARE you?”
Then: “Who ARE you?” Has a complete stranger ever asked you such an open-ended and personal question? It was a first for me. I had no idea what information he wanted and wasn’t about to give him my name or biography. “I don’t understand the question,” I told him. He didn’t like this answer.
Cop Threatens to Exceed His Authority
It was around this time that he claimed to be a cop. He showed no badge and wore no uniform. My instructor, who is a former cop, intervened to try and appease the man, a detective Jon Ogborn of Warwick township, Bucks county, Pennsylvania state. I kept quiet until Ogborn announced that he had to know who was carrying a gun around him, even if he had to handcuff and detain me. I replied that he would be exceeding his authority if he did that; that open carry of a firearm is legal under Pennsylvania law. Even his own department’s training memos will have confirmed in the last year that open carry is not sufficient justification for detention.
Just Waiting on my Sandwich
He got up, got in my face and became rather aggressive. I was just waiting for my sandwich to come up. I let him know I had no ill intentions. The gentleman who took my order told me he’d bring it to me so I sat down. To my amazement, my instructor gabbed with the cops (his lunch companion was a cop, too) all about me and my firearm-related activities.
This was not Right
As my adrenaline rush petered out and I ate my lunch, I realized I had just been treated inappropriately by a person claiming to be a cop who had demonstrated no evidence of it. I had no idea what his name was. This was not right. At a minimum, the cops’ own laws state they have to identify themselves to the public. I might want to file a complaint. I at least needed to keep my options open. So as I was leaving I stopped at his table. “Pardon me for interrupting but may I have your business card,” I asked.
Refused to Identify Himself
He refused! He offered to give it only if I provided my ID as well. I noticed that his lunch companion had a last name of McGurney on her sweater and a patch saying Warwick township. I noted this and began to leave but he got up and blocked my exit. He demanded my ID and when I asked if it was legally required, he claimed yes! That is an outrageous lie. I demanded to know what his reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS) was. His confidence level fell when I mentioned RAS. I guess he’s used to picking on less-informed folks. I asked if I was free to go. He said no! I asked on what basis he was detaining me. A charge of disorderly conduct! Unbelievable.
Detained on Fabricated Charge
For several tense minutes he pushed me further and further into the back of the strip mall restaurant as he demanded my ID. I told him he was assaulting me but he denied it. I refused to give the ID. He told me he hadn’t planned to arrest me but he would. He claimed I had escalated the situation and left him with no choice, ignoring his aggressive actions toward me entirely! All I had to do to be free to go was to give me ID. My instructor begged me to give it so we could continue our class. I told him, I couldn’t give it to him even if I wanted to because my hands were cuffed behind my back!
Cops Keeping Track of Open Carriers?
Ogborn demanded to know if I was a lawyer. I just stopped talking to him. He didn’t expect me to resist him this much or with such pointed questions as about the RAS. I could tell he was nervous. He expected me to cave. I did not. He confessed that all he wanted was my ID so he could write up the earlier encounter with me. This really took me aback. Does law enforcement keep tabs on people who open carry?
Cops Doesn’t Care if I Consent or Not
He took me out back where we waited in the cold for several minutes, I without a jacket – that had been confiscated. He emptied my pockets. I told him I didn’t consent to any searches and he said he didn’t care. He inspected my wallet and found my driver’s license. But of course that was never the only thing he wanted. My possessions were placed in a ziplock bag. I was loaded into a police SUV, forced to lay across the back seat with no back support. There was literally no leg room. Ogborn’s lunch companion, Kathleen (Kathy) McGurney, drove me to jail.
How Can a Human Being be so Monstrous?
At the Warwick police department, I was ordered to remove belt and shoes and left in a 4′x6′ or 6′x8′ cement cell. I have to say, this was not fun. There was a camera watching me. It had one of those metal toilets. No privacy. A dirty white towel was the only potential source of cover. The only place to sit or lay down was painted concrete. The cement floor was freezing my feet. That’s the first time I’ve been locked in a cage and it is not pleasant. How can a human being be so monstrous as to lock his fellow man in a cage simply for failing to give the required level of deference?
Good Cop, Bad Cop
After 10 minutes, Ogborn showed up and gave me the good cop routine while McGurney in the background asked if I had to be taken down to the Montgomery county scanseek (??), whatever that is. I had to confirm my current address in order to get out. He implied that if I didn’t cooperate my charge could become a misdemeanor and that could become a problem for my planned move. [WTF! He got this tidbit of information from my instructor.] He justified himself again. He let me put my shoes on. He lectured me for several minutes with his version of the encounter. He complimented me. He led me to the building lobby where I waited another 20 minutes while they processed my property and reportedly a charge of disorderly conduct which I’m to hear of in the mail.
Still Completed My Course!
All of this transpired during roughly 2 hours but I still managed to complete the pistol course on time! Ironically, at least one of my four lunch companions was carrying a concealed firearm. But Ogborn didn’t see fit to search the whole restaurant for concealed pistols.
Analysis
I have a bad attitude. It simply an incontrovertible fact. I will not bow down to authority figures. This is the root of my problem. I simply can not expect to speak with cops as my equals without being detained, harassed, attacked, man-handled, imprisoned, talked down to and/or robbed. This is the world I live in. I accept the consequences of my actions. So be it. But I will never bow down.
These are My Offenses
What did I do wrong? I securely and legally carried a pistol openly. I failed to answer the questions of a person who didn’t even identify himself as a cop. I told a cop that open carry was legal and that he did not have the authority by his own rules to detain me simply for open carrying. I asked a cop to identify himself. I refused to identify myself in a situation where even the cop’s own laws don’t require it. These are my offenses. For this I was harassed, assaulted, kidnapped and imprisoned – just for starters.
That’s the world we live in folks.
What Should I Have Done Differently
I have to learn how to ignore people I don’t know. I should have ignored Ogborn’s initial, and all subsequent, questions. I should have pretended he hadn’t even spoken. This is very counter to my nature though. I’m rather loquacious, sometimes gregarious and always receptive to communication with most any kind of person – even smelly bums!
I was running with the wrong crowd. My instructor is an ex-cop. Of course he’s going to sell me out at first chance. He’s a nice guy and he doesn’t see it that way, but in objective fact he did sell me out by giving Ogborn so much info about me. I have to be very careful about who I associate with. Any but the most committed is a liability.
I failed to exercise the discipline and care necessary to audio record my daily life. Argh.
What I Did Right
I’m glad I defended myself by stating that open carry is legal under Pennsylvania law and that he has no legal authority to detain me simply for open carrying. I think being too meek with a cop simply encourages him. I’m also glad I asked for his business card because I would have felt poorly without getting the information.
I was radically more terse in my communications this time. I didn’t lecture or challenge the cop hardly at all. I remained silent most of the time. I asked if I was free to go. Then I asked if I was being detained and what for. This was good.
I’m glad I stood my ground on the ID issue. He had no basis to demand it even under his own rules.
Next Actions
I’m going to put in a Pennsylvania Right to Know (FOIA-like) request on Monday. I will attempt to get the police report. I will consider filing a complaint and I may have to file a counter-claim if they pursue this unfounded disorderly conduct charge.
Don’t Tell me to Take it Down
Don’t tell me to take this down because it’s damaging my legal case. My goal is not to rake the cops over the coal for a multi-million dollar settlement. That’s a pipe dream. My goal in telling this story is to inform people like me. The fact is that the constitutions, bills of rights, laws, legal safeguards, police training memos and assorted government public relations paperwork are for entertainment and decorative purposes only.
You Want the Truth?
The fact is that cops don’t serve you. They serve themselves. They have no limits. They have legal immunity for their acts. They have no legal obligation to protect you from harm! They can do whatever the hell they like, and lie about it afterwards. They can arrest you for nothing, drop the original charges and prosecute you for resisting their false arrest. It’s a scam.
Most people can’t, or won’t, see this. That’s fine. I just hope to reach the small number who can.
Photo credit: banspy. Photo license.
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Good info Chuck, thanks!
Sue them or expect the abuse to continue. I just don’t have any sympathy for someone who refuses to seek redress for such a violation of his rights.
No, I hadn’t seen the video you linked; thanks for passing it on. Curiously enough, that happens to be the station that I’ve been talking about!
If a perfect stranger can come up and assault you, kidnap you and put you in a cage, what is the point of carrying a gun?
You’ll enjoy his videos Julie.
Don, there was a person that appeared to be a cop next to him. It was reasonable to act as if he was a cop, even if he never showed me any evidence of that fact.
Re-reading your post George, I’d also file a claim(s) against the cop who was with the bad-cop, since he was present and witnessed all this and did nothing to protect you, which also violated HIS oath of office.
1215, great idea, thanks. I was wondering what to do about the second cop.
Lemme get this straight.
You’re walking around with a gun right out in the open for all to see.
A thug insults and assaults you multiple times in front of a group of people.
Then he kidnaps you and throws you in a cage after taking some of your garb.
Am I right so far?
I’ll also presume he took your gun too.
Then growing bored with your passivity he kicked you to the curb and took some of your money.
Is this an accurate description of this portrait you have rendered?
So back to my original question, whats the point of the gun?
Don I suppose you’re one of these tough guys that if this happened to you the bad guy would be dead, or worse. I think I handled a tough situation well. I minimized the damage. I am not in jail and not facing charges of resisting arrest or assaulting a cop. And I’m certainly not on the run after killing a cop with the blue brotherhood nationwide making finding and killing me their number one priority.
Anything further on this ridiculous line of questioning that isn’t reasonable will not be published.
Remember when you have them on the stand, “Ignorance is no excuse” LOL
Don,
George was showing restraint. Maybe those cops should take a few classes from George.
George, do yourself a favor and look up Radley Balko and do some reading about what he has been archiving for the past few years at least.
Let me clarify something, until you approached the thug at his table I believe you were completely in the right.
He was an asshole, but this shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone that’s been paying attention.
If you had been paying attention, and are aware of the things Balko constantly writes about, then why in the world would you mess around with these people?
They almost ALWAYS win.
Here’s my advice, avoid all of this. Move on with your life.
I’m a firm believer in teaching by example and 4 years ago I saw the writing on the wall and removed myself from the type of environment where scenarios like you have described are prevalent. No, I’m not a tough guy, but I do recognize that I have a *threshold of rage* and one of these punks will eventually cause me to cross that threshold if I allow that to happen. Now, I live in a place where there about 10 jack boots in the whole county and as far as I can tell they know their place, as it should be.
I try to avoid confrontation with assholes and I do that because I know how I am. Seriously, I just can’t be around that sort of thing. I have a wife and a kid and they deserve to have their husband/father around for a long time and I think yours do too.
Onward.
“Ignorance is no excuse” LOL
Don, I thank you for your advice. I’m going to pursue it for now and see where it leads. Either the cops will change and I will be proven wrong, or I will be proven right – nothing will improve and the capriciousness of the police and courts will be demonstrated once again. Seems like a win-win! Thanks for your final comment Don, which is thoughtful and sincere.
1215,
I agree, he shouldn’t have had to put up with any of that.
But why are you denying reality here?
Everyday these jackboots are terrorizing people all across the land and getting away with it, and that is wrong. But it is a fact of life, now, and to deny that is pure folly. If you fool around with these animals enough they will kill you. Yes, George could have pulled his piece and delivered justice on the spot, but the back-up would have come after him and killed him. Again, this happens everyday here in the USSA. So why mess with these people?
Look, nobody likes to lose, and George thinks he has been wronged, and I agree that he has. But somewhere along the line he has to realize he is way out numbered and the system is way out of line. He can bitch, moan, hire lawyers, sue everybody, and play by THEIR rules but in the end what has been gained?
Or, he can look at this thing for what it is, learn something, and adjust his life accordingly.
Me? I got better things to do than play silly jack boot games.
you don’t hurt them by being violent, that’s their game. You hurt them by making them broke. I will bet the entire force would have an attitude adjustment when the sheriff is auctioning off the cop’s WIFE’S HOUSE AND ALL THEIR BELONGINGS, because he went too far. And I guarantee you they will think twice in the future, and will be more likely to follow lawful procedure. All because you show them that they can’t hide behind their badge or department, since they are PERSONALLY COMMERCIALLY RESPONSIBLE for their actions. They will continue acting like that, as long as they keep getting away with it. Once they see there are REAL CONSEQUENCES, they will start behaving and act like civil servants instead of pirates.
I’m not sure where Don is located that the ever-more-pervasive government doesn’t affect him, but if it is clear to him that the system can provide no redress, he has nothing to lose in pursuing a natural law defense of self, given that the government will eventually destroy him and his family /no matter/ what he does.
George, I’ve been reading what those at PAFOA say, and there’s obviously one thing they don’t understand as to why you won’t take action (and I assume this is the basis), that there is some moral conundrum with your anarcho-voluntaryist roots that prevents you from using the system to seek redress against it. What I don’t understand is why you never mention that when people respond to you posts on PAFOA. Now, if I am wrong and you reason is actually that you somehow don’t want to jeopardize your family, you already have, having had made yourself a known entity to law enforcement. The problem with not taking action is the next guy will ‘get it’ that much harder, and in every case, you have also been the next guy; the man preceding you it would have been too much trouble to do anything about his situation, or that it was helpless, that all those anecdotes of being shot down by the Man assembled together in his subconscious and he said “I shall not even try.”
Well that’s frankly bullshit, and when everyone clamors for you to take action and admonishes you for not, you must understand that they come from a view that there is still a theoretically viable system with which to take action and they are apparently not barred morally from doing so. The problem is that their helplessness appears as learned as yours. For example, I don’t know if I’ve even seen a report on PAFOA of someone attempting to file a private criminal complaint against a state actor (and be denied) yet some will tell you unequivocally that such an effort will fail. Where did they learn this response?
These kinds of wrongful actions will continue and EVEN if every suitable method were bound for a most immediate and acute failure, the acts have side effects potentially beneficial. Most police wrongdoing never get reported, but what if EVERY victim filled a private criminal complaint and then appealed to the court of common pleas, so that ultimate a public record of every incident was generated. Don’t people think that someone might aggregate such data, and eventually the media might report it, or at least the citizens at large might have such information available before them on some place on the internet? How long could the People remain ignorant, purposely or otherwise?
There are several tools in the toolkit of redress, perhaps some more useful than others, but we’ve certainly not mastered them all, nor made them obsolete. If there is no actual ethical bar to entry into the system for such purposes, I implore you to use as many tools as you can. One tool I would like to see you use is the private criminal complaint. Official Oppression, Robbery, False Imprisonment, and Harassment certainly might be applicable according to your record above. Please see Who determines probable cause when a private criminal complaint is submitted? on PAFOA to get an idea of the basic legal process (as for the procedural process, who’s to know? no one has ever claimed to have undertaken it!)
Maybe I’ll call the Bucks County DA’s Office and ask them how to best facilitate a complaint through the system. Maybe I’ll ask them, “If I have a page of a journal, the journal belonging to some criminal, and I pass this nameless criminal’s journal page before the office, will they write up a police criminal complaint having found probable cause or more among that criminals own words, as to prosecute him?”
Having now just reviewed your video, I wonder why you weren’t willing to receive answers in writing (but not alternately to on video) if they were really willing to provide them. A departmental complaint should not just go to a department where a supervisor or police chief can shrug is off. I’m not sure there’s any police officer who would remain hired if they stood up and upheld the constitutions, so we have to believe they are given somewhat of a blank check to perform their acts. This is not to dissuade you from directing a complaint to the department personnel in charge of handling those, but you also need to copy that to the township solicitor, and the elected officials who have the power to determine the police chief. This will be either the supervisors or the commissioners, and I am not sure which party would be most applicable. I would try calling both groups and asking them which has the control over the chief and the personnel; I have also found documents on the internet describing different elected officals’ authorities over the police department and I am attempting to relocate it now for your perusal.
O, I suspect announcing I’m an anarchist and attempting to massage their concept of an anarchist as a commie bomb-thrower into what I mean by it as a peaceful person would only make matters worse.
You make some very good points there, thanks.
Having evolved my views over the last 3 months, I don’t feel as bad about using the system’s methods of redress of grievance now as I feel it’s simply a waste of time and money and therefore self-destructive.
Most of all I’m just really shocked by this last incident and willing to try something new.
Thanks for your suggestions. I am going to file the private criminal complaint for both cases.
You’re right, it was silly of me not to fall back to written Q and A so I sent him an email with my questions.
Hey great idea there on copying the supervisors! Thank you. I will try that as well.
@O. Rly: The gov’t DOES affect me, and as I stated, I am constantly arranging things in an effort to minimalize how much it affects me. As I age this becomes more and more important to me. Fighting them is not in my game plan, avoiding them is. There is little to no chance of winning against the gov’t and any win would be microscopic and not without severe repercussions. I mounted a 14 year long effort against the gov’t at unbelievable cost and lost drastically even though everything was on my side including the facts of law. THAT convinced me that there is no fighting this institution. Hell, this gov’t takes on whole countries so what chance does a mere individual have? You guys can fight the good fight if you wish, thats your choice and I believe it to be a noble effort, but I also think its very naive of you to believe you have a chance of winning when there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary. And these sorts of things tend to stick to you for a very long time. This gov’t is getting bigger, not smaller. I’m pretty much convinced it is already top heavy and will eventually fall over. My job is to stay out of its way when it does. I just want to live and let live and be left alone. So I am reducing my footprint on this planet and staying below the radar sweep. I live peacefully in a very small rural community in the midwest and I moved here 4 years ago after living in a very large suburban area in southwest Florida for 40 years. Its better here.
George, there’s already libertarians with internal conflicts and anarchists on PAFOA, who are not uprooted simply for their belief in ultimate liberty. At the same time, there are many people who call themselves libertarianish and yet don’t mind all these encroachments and sometimes even ask for more of different types. One name I can think off is ‘truecrimson’, search for his posts and read a few, and you should understand. I would have thought just linking these posters to a few blog entries on your site related to your philosophy would have been helpful.
I suppose that is moot now, since you are saying you are more open to working the system now. How much did it cost you to go file that departmental complaint, one that is allegedly turning into a DA inquiry? If a prosecution commences against any officer, will you still be able to say it is a “waste of time and money and therefore self-destructive”? (and I’m still not sure on what basis you and many others take this positions.)
Further, I don’t think that there is even a filing fee to file a private criminal complaint, only what it costs you in time to draw it up, print it on paper, drive it to the DA (and the MDJ if the DA hands an approved complaint back to you to be transmitted). Any court costs are going to be taxed to the Commonwealth or the defendant, so the PCC seems to be an incredibly low cost, low risk endeavor (except maybe if the government can turn all the police and all your witnesses into saying the events did not occur and then they try to slap you with a “False reports to law enforcement authorities” charge.)
I never was against filing a complaint, I just didn’t get around to it with Plymouth, until today.
I’m going to file the private criminal complaints.
It’s the idea of hiring a lawyer and doing civil suits that I consider a waste of time, speaking for myself.
Well, George, congratulations on becoming an OC veteran!
Getting tossed in the can for something like this is no bad thing.
You now have experience and perspective beyond the Keyboard Kommandos out there.
Short of going up to the cop and asking for his ID (you should have just left the whole thing alone), I’d say you handled it very well. The PD is clearly vulnerable to a lawsuit. Go on the legal offensive my friend!
“The Police” is no monolith, but a community-varied department. Some PDs are fair, while others are not. To some extent, the local citizens have power to improve things, if they are willing to take some risks.
Recording all confrontations is vital.
The best way is to have the audio streaming through cell phone to a safe computer. That way, the .wav file couldn’t be erased after arrest if they found the device.
If y’all don’t have my book YOU & THE POLICE!, get it.
It’s like a pocket lawyer, and will save you much grief.
http://javelinpress.com/you_and_the_police.html
http://www.amazon.com/You-Police-Kenneth-W-Royce/dp/1888766093/ref=pd_sim_b_1/191-0086089-0734711
Boston, thanks.
I disagree about leaving it alone. Supposedly the cops are your friend. If that was true, asking for him to id himself should be no big deal. Clearly this demonstrates that at least these two cops are not my friend.
I do have that book of yours but haven’t read it yet. I’ll have to prioritize it!
See you in March I hope.
Oh dear.
Why do people think like this. Or is it even thinking at all. I think not.
Let’s take a closer look.
George said this:
“Supposedly the cops are your friend.” ”
Where did you ever get that idea?
“If that was true, asking for him to id himself should be no big deal.”
Do you routinely ask *friends* to ID themselves?
Do you routinely ask anyone to ID themselves?
But you do take exception of someone asking you to ID yourself.
I see.
“Clearly this demonstrates that at least these two cops are not my friend.”
Unbelievable.
Let me ask you something, are you aware of the current world around you?
Is this the very first time you have been made aware of the viciousness of the jackboots?
Don’t forget, this whole thing did a 180 when you challenged the thug at his table after it was all over.
YOU are now on the defense yet you act like you are on the offense.
They will shred you on that one little fact.
Don
(1) Propagandists like to portray cops as harmless folks who are looking out for you.
(2) Cops are reportedly held to a higher standard than the ordinary citizen.
(3) Police are required to id themselves when asked. I confirmed this with Warwick police. Individuals are not, at least not in PA, not when they are on foot and there is no evidence/suspicion of a crime.
Woah! Boston Tea Party!! KICK ASS!!
I have to admit, when I heard your speech at the Freedom Summit last month it radically changed the way I perceive police interactions and ALL interactions with the government for that matter.
I fully believe that in order to ‘live to take care of ourselves and those important to us’ we need to seriously consider the ‘opportunities’ from the ‘tragedies’. As an activist now (slightly over a year) I have learned the HARD WAY that the passion to right the wrongs comes with consequence. I was arrested / convicted of photographing an other gentleman in my company who was video taping his surprise interaction with two border patrol agents eating at a sleazy pizzeria in the ‘land of Yuma AZ’ (native American for ‘the place where dogs defecate then seek to lie down and sleep in it’). My so called ‘counter part’ made 35 seconds of video questioning these two chaps while I hung in the background and snapped photos. At our trial they gave us equal punishment (disorderly conduct fine $280) to which we are in the process of appeal. The travel distance one way to this municipal place of ‘court’ (laughable, sincerely!) over 3.5 hours drive one way.
I was listening to you Boston, and I feel that it is MUCH better to quietly reside into our safe-place than it is to go toe-to-toe with ‘the man’. The only addendum I would offer is one that can’t be avoided. When that is the case, prudence dictates our common sense in a flurry of sordid emotion. YES, you will feel the sting of ‘how can a cop get away with this’, but if you are NOT under arrest; by all means…GET THE HELL AWAY FROM THE HEAT!!!
If you must endure the promptings of a field investigation, GET THE RECORDINGS GOING, get witnesses (in that order) and simply refuse to answer any questions asking the officer…”If I ANSWER you or make any statements, CAN THEY BE USED AGAINST ME in a court of law??” (duh….)
Upon that ‘open realization’ that you are familiar with your rights, make sure you make good mental notes on the arrest for later; if they don’t arrest you say nothing and leave immediately.
The thing I and others I know have learned is that you are NOT an effective parent / citizen / employee / activist if you are under the scrutiny of the law and fighting an up-hill battle to prove the cop is a bad cop; so avoid this at all cost.
True activism in my opinion is an analysis into targeting ‘easy wins’ with signs, campaigns, handing out information-DVD’s etc. and remaining strong and consistent. If the police become involved, that skews all of this to immediate “get away from danger” action instead. Consider them ‘ as being ‘pirates’…or LAND SHARKS…or DEMONS FROM HELL…whatever works butr stay far, far away from them! Then, after you are collected you can build inspiration and attack with evidence, testimony, witnesses and go after the pirates BONDS!!! They all have to be insured and most agencies understand that there is a certain amount of ‘cost of doing business’, and since WE ARE THEIR CUSTOMERS, (the bitch pirate who ran the ’show’ on my ordeal in Yuma actually called us that during her testimony on the trial) make sure you injure their place of employment accordingly!
Sorry about the rant’… and YES, we should ALL HAVE COPIES of Boston’s book. Trust me, ‘the man’ really doesn’t want you to become privy to what’s in there. Stay Safe!
Live video up-link with a smart phone…
I’m not sure how many of you have these cool mini-computer phones, but we recently (two days ago) set my wife’s ‘crackberry’ up with a QIK.COM account. Most will be pleased at how well / EZ this works.
Here: see for yourself!!
http://qik.com/video/4436042
For those who don’t have Boston’s book… you can ask him to sign your copy if you attend the Liberty Forum in March..
He will be there. George might be there….
http://www.freestateproject.org/libertyforum
George….if the actions occurred as you described, there we errors in judgement on boths sides, especially in a public establishment…that being said, I would prefer that you do not carry a firearm openly in the township where I live…Lou
George,
For not having my book, you did extremely well!
You’re almost “there” . . . but not quite.
Cops work for the state, and the state is in search of bodies.
Do not talk to cops, ever.
Force them to actually detain by restraint, and they will do so if they’re sure of their RAS.
If you’re already free, you can’t become more free by talking to cops.
You were free after you rightfully declined to show ID.
You won. You should have left it that way.
By going back to him (for any/whatever) reason ran you the risk of becoming less free — as you soon experienced. By asking for his ID, you in effect challenged him (and in front of his colleague). He could not be expected to back down. Especially not a guy like that.
To use an analogy, in sales I’ve learned to SHUT UP once the customer is reaching for his wallet to pay. There’s nothing I can say at that point to help the sale (which has already been made), but something I might say could reverse the sale. It’s happened to me enough times to stick.
Soooooo, once you’re free to go . . . GO. LEAVE. STAY AWAY.
Boston
We written but here is how I see it. Civilians who carry “open”, do so for one reason, to be stared at and to be outrageous. You can hide behind the law, protection, carry options, etc., the truth is you like to look the part. Get a carry permit or be prepared to receive the attention you so badly want. Or, take the test and become a cop.
Lou, every ratified PA Constitution since Independence (i.e. 1776, 1790, 1838, 1874, and 1968) has contained not only ‘that the right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the state shall not be questioned’ but also that ‘the citizens of the commonwealth shall be armed and trained.’ It is not only a right to go about armed but a duty, to maintain the continuity of deterrence against tyranny, and to maintain the ever-vigilant armed body of free men made of the People — following the general proscription that a standing army ought not be kept. The PA Constitution of 1776 even called upon those unwilling to bear arms to pay ‘an equivalent’.
You can stick your constitution straight up your ass, it has nothing to do with me, and anyone that thinks it does needs to be professionally examined.
I was born in Gettysburg.
Correct Don. It has nothing to do with us. It presumably has something to do with the people that swear an oath to uphold it. Ha ha!
Lou, I encourage you to ban or permit whatever you like on your own property and demand the unquestioned right to enforce your property rights from the government.
Errors in judgment on both sides, possibly. But there were definitely violations of the law on only one side.
Boston, you have a good point. Thank you for the advice!
Level-headed, you can read minds, wow! I always wanted to learn how to do that. The reality is 99% of folks are so enclosed in their own little worlds they don’t even notice I’m open carrying.
O, great info, thanks.
Very proud of you, George!
Here in NC we have concealed carry permits and open carry with limitations. That being said, most businesses have signs prohibiting firearms or weapons. I would think it is their right to control what is allowed on their property. Although I have been in your neck of the woods many times I have not noticed or thought to look for such signs. Is the situation the same there? Do you know what the diner’s owner thought about the incident?
I have no problems with legal firearms with responsible owners , concealed or open. I am just a curious type. I have carried very rarely, only when having to go to known bad places at known bad times.
And that’s the critical point Jim, good one. What happened to people upholding their oaths of office?
Well, thank you Jen! Didn’t know you had a blog, will check that out.
David, I have yet to see a sign banning guns here, other than in a court building. Open carry is de facto legal under PA law and there are very few restrictions. Big glitzy malls don’t like it but very few actually announce the fact. They handle it on a case-by-case basis it seems.
The restaurant owner is a witness to the events. He was quite friendly with me when I went in the second time. I apologized about the incident happening in his establishment. Other than that, he had no comments on it. I open carried the second time I went in as well and he did not seem upset about it then either.
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If I had one of these babies a few months back, I’m fairly certain I’d have a poor slob’s bond (masquerading as a Pirate) by now. We ordered two of these, I’ll let you all know how they turn out!!
Peace~
See the website http://www.flexyourrights.org. I have been showing the video to audiences in Indiana. If there were more people like you the country would be a better place. The only thing I would have done differently was put my gun in the trunk of my car before asking him for his card. Good Show, ol chap.
Thanks for your comments Chuck and Greg!
“Level headed” wrote:
“Civilians who carry “open”, do so for one reason, to be stared at and to be outrageous.”
Sorry, but you’re quite mistaken.
I’ve OCed a lot, as do many of my friends.
You may think OC is “outrageous”, but we do not.
Expressing your RKBA with a CCW is like expressing your First Amd.
right with laryngitis. We will contine to OC until the uninformed and
nervous no longer see it as “outrageous”.
Conversely, it is the unarmed who deserve to be “stared at”.
@Boston T. Party: Expressing your RKBA with a CCW is like expressing your First Amd. right
++++++++
Since when did the constitution grant rights?
I just want to point out that what Boston said does not necessarily imply that he thinks rights are granted by constitutions. You jumped to that conclusion without a sound foundation for it.
George,
I’m sure you are familiar with the case here in Chicago in which videotape evidence couldn’t put away a cop for his actions. The incident is captured on youtube regarding a huge, drunk, off-duty police officer clearly going behind the bar and assaulting the bartender to the point where she was unconscious, simply because she refused to serve him a drink. Yes, the large 36-year old man beat up a 21-year old girl.
The officer was acquitted, and remains on the force today. Lesson for the public to learn.
Good luck in trying this officer.
Yes I read about that and saw the video. Very crazy. Thanks for commenting.
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