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	<title>Comments on: The Problem with Intellectual Property is &#8211; Surprise &#8211; Government Aggression</title>
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	<link>http://georgedonnelly.com/libertarian/problem-with-intellectual-property-aggression</link>
	<description>A Left Libertarian Market Anarchist Blog</description>
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		<title>By: George Donnelly</title>
		<link>http://georgedonnelly.com/libertarian/problem-with-intellectual-property-aggression/comment-page-1/#comment-9520</link>
		<dc:creator>George Donnelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 13:50:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://georgedonnelly.com/?p=2209#comment-9520</guid>
		<description>If the stone carvers refuse to answer your claim for damages they are in dishonor under the common law. Default judgment for you. You can now go after them.

It&#039;s not the lawless society. It&#039;s the stateless society. There will always be laws, even if they are only natural law. So far I find the common law, which was built up over centuries, to be compatible with a stateless society.

Thanks for your comments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the stone carvers refuse to answer your claim for damages they are in dishonor under the common law. Default judgment for you. You can now go after them.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not the lawless society. It&#8217;s the stateless society. There will always be laws, even if they are only natural law. So far I find the common law, which was built up over centuries, to be compatible with a stateless society.</p>
<p>Thanks for your comments.</p>
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		<title>By: JBryce</title>
		<link>http://georgedonnelly.com/libertarian/problem-with-intellectual-property-aggression/comment-page-1/#comment-9516</link>
		<dc:creator>JBryce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 06:32:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://georgedonnelly.com/?p=2209#comment-9516</guid>
		<description>Yeah... sounds really clever. If I were the stone carvers, I&#039;d just say go fuck yourself. At that point, I would almost find the guy with the idea justified in using force to create some sort of restitution. I find it asinine to think of someone bringing a lawsuit against others in a society with no laws. I&#039;ll &quot;stick to my guns&quot; as the case may be. If that&#039;s justified, and a proper deterrent for people willing to steal other people&#039;s ideas, then maybe anarchism isn&#039;t so bad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah&#8230; sounds really clever. If I were the stone carvers, I&#8217;d just say go fuck yourself. At that point, I would almost find the guy with the idea justified in using force to create some sort of restitution. I find it asinine to think of someone bringing a lawsuit against others in a society with no laws. I&#8217;ll &#8220;stick to my guns&#8221; as the case may be. If that&#8217;s justified, and a proper deterrent for people willing to steal other people&#8217;s ideas, then maybe anarchism isn&#8217;t so bad.</p>
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		<title>By: George Donnelly</title>
		<link>http://georgedonnelly.com/libertarian/problem-with-intellectual-property-aggression/comment-page-1/#comment-9512</link>
		<dc:creator>George Donnelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 02:40:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://georgedonnelly.com/?p=2209#comment-9512</guid>
		<description>You would have to bring a lawsuit against the stone carvers (in a stateless society) to get them to stop. Twelve of your peers would then have to see if they agree with you or not. You would have to pay for the whole courtroom affair, including the judge and jury members, and you could not compel the stone carvers to attend. I think that&#039;s a reasonable way to settle such matters.

Of course, in the process you may bankrupt yourself and alienate your potential client base, defeating yourself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You would have to bring a lawsuit against the stone carvers (in a stateless society) to get them to stop. Twelve of your peers would then have to see if they agree with you or not. You would have to pay for the whole courtroom affair, including the judge and jury members, and you could not compel the stone carvers to attend. I think that&#8217;s a reasonable way to settle such matters.</p>
<p>Of course, in the process you may bankrupt yourself and alienate your potential client base, defeating yourself.</p>
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		<title>By: JBryce</title>
		<link>http://georgedonnelly.com/libertarian/problem-with-intellectual-property-aggression/comment-page-1/#comment-9511</link>
		<dc:creator>JBryce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 22:07:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://georgedonnelly.com/?p=2209#comment-9511</guid>
		<description>I think intellectual property is too often broken down to music and prose and the like. The real test of intellectual property comes in the technological sector. If I invent a widget worth billions of dollars, as long as I maintain the rights to sell it exclusively, I have a serious interest in making sure no competitors enter the market. 

Say for example, I invented the wheel. I sell wheels now, and am originally the only one to have realized its usefulness. It&#039;s going to seem to be obvious to everyone how simple it is, and that they could have thought it up themselves, and that they don&#039;t owe me anything. Before my idea truly gets off the ground, masons and stone carvers (who can make much better wheels than I can, given their expertise) start to work, and profit from my idea.

I&#039;m not saying I would use force against these people, but it would definitely cross my mind. They are profiting from my incredible technological advance, and I am not. Only through my enforcement of my perceived property rights will I be able to generate profit. 

How is my claim to my idea any less valid than your claim to physical property, and would you accept me using an equivalent amount of force to stop you that you would use to stop a thief from taking your property?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think intellectual property is too often broken down to music and prose and the like. The real test of intellectual property comes in the technological sector. If I invent a widget worth billions of dollars, as long as I maintain the rights to sell it exclusively, I have a serious interest in making sure no competitors enter the market. </p>
<p>Say for example, I invented the wheel. I sell wheels now, and am originally the only one to have realized its usefulness. It&#8217;s going to seem to be obvious to everyone how simple it is, and that they could have thought it up themselves, and that they don&#8217;t owe me anything. Before my idea truly gets off the ground, masons and stone carvers (who can make much better wheels than I can, given their expertise) start to work, and profit from my idea.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying I would use force against these people, but it would definitely cross my mind. They are profiting from my incredible technological advance, and I am not. Only through my enforcement of my perceived property rights will I be able to generate profit. </p>
<p>How is my claim to my idea any less valid than your claim to physical property, and would you accept me using an equivalent amount of force to stop you that you would use to stop a thief from taking your property?</p>
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		<title>By: George Donnelly</title>
		<link>http://georgedonnelly.com/libertarian/problem-with-intellectual-property-aggression/comment-page-1/#comment-9482</link>
		<dc:creator>George Donnelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 01:43:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://georgedonnelly.com/?p=2209#comment-9482</guid>
		<description>Thanks Daniel. Frankly, after struggling so long with the IP debate, it is shocking and refreshing to have it all come down to aggression.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Daniel. Frankly, after struggling so long with the IP debate, it is shocking and refreshing to have it all come down to aggression.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Memenode</title>
		<link>http://georgedonnelly.com/libertarian/problem-with-intellectual-property-aggression/comment-page-1/#comment-9481</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Memenode</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 21:34:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://georgedonnelly.com/?p=2209#comment-9481</guid>
		<description>I agree it&#039;s moot, especially since two people can take both of the opposing positions and still get along in practice quite well so long as both believe in basic property. One can say property can be intellectual by simply considering it one with the medium and the other may prefer to view the information as distinct and thus unownable. Yet in practice, if both believe in basic property rights, given that this &quot;intellectual property&quot; cannot exist without a medium, the physical property rights override everything. 

So ultimately, yeah, the only real issue is a monopoly on violence violating basic property itself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree it&#8217;s moot, especially since two people can take both of the opposing positions and still get along in practice quite well so long as both believe in basic property. One can say property can be intellectual by simply considering it one with the medium and the other may prefer to view the information as distinct and thus unownable. Yet in practice, if both believe in basic property rights, given that this &#8220;intellectual property&#8221; cannot exist without a medium, the physical property rights override everything. </p>
<p>So ultimately, yeah, the only real issue is a monopoly on violence violating basic property itself.</p>
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		<title>By: George Donnelly</title>
		<link>http://georgedonnelly.com/libertarian/problem-with-intellectual-property-aggression/comment-page-1/#comment-9480</link>
		<dc:creator>George Donnelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:00:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://georgedonnelly.com/?p=2209#comment-9480</guid>
		<description>Thanks but frankly I still think the topic is moot. There&#039;s no sense arguing over something that&#039;s moot, don&#039;t you think?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks but frankly I still think the topic is moot. There&#8217;s no sense arguing over something that&#8217;s moot, don&#8217;t you think?</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://georgedonnelly.com/libertarian/problem-with-intellectual-property-aggression/comment-page-1/#comment-9478</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 18:30:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://georgedonnelly.com/?p=2209#comment-9478</guid>
		<description>George,

I agree.  There have been some good articles (and audio prz) on this topic out of The Mises Institute.  Here&#039;s one: http://mises.org/story/2632</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>George,</p>
<p>I agree.  There have been some good articles (and audio prz) on this topic out of The Mises Institute.  Here&#8217;s one: <a href="http://mises.org/story/2632" >http://mises.org/story/2632</a></p>
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		<title>By: George Donnelly</title>
		<link>http://georgedonnelly.com/libertarian/problem-with-intellectual-property-aggression/comment-page-1/#comment-9477</link>
		<dc:creator>George Donnelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 18:24:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://georgedonnelly.com/?p=2209#comment-9477</guid>
		<description>Ryan, you don&#039;t have a natural right of property ownership over someone else&#039;s property.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ryan, you don&#8217;t have a natural right of property ownership over someone else&#8217;s property.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://georgedonnelly.com/libertarian/problem-with-intellectual-property-aggression/comment-page-1/#comment-9476</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 17:34:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://georgedonnelly.com/?p=2209#comment-9476</guid>
		<description>Any license that violates the natural right of property ownership doesn&#039;t belong in a free market.  Of course, these are just my opinions. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Any license that violates the natural right of property ownership doesn&#8217;t belong in a free market.  Of course, these are just my opinions. <img src='http://georgedonnelly.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: George Donnelly</title>
		<link>http://georgedonnelly.com/libertarian/problem-with-intellectual-property-aggression/comment-page-1/#comment-9475</link>
		<dc:creator>George Donnelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 16:02:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://georgedonnelly.com/?p=2209#comment-9475</guid>
		<description>It can be argued that you purchase the CD and a limited license to the data that is on it, that license being described by the agreement you made when you purchased it.

But, again, it&#039;s a moot point because the market will decide. It&#039;s only a topic worthy of debate when the tyrant - who makes one decision for all - must be convinced one way or another.

Thanks for commenting. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It can be argued that you purchase the CD and a limited license to the data that is on it, that license being described by the agreement you made when you purchased it.</p>
<p>But, again, it&#8217;s a moot point because the market will decide. It&#8217;s only a topic worthy of debate when the tyrant &#8211; who makes one decision for all &#8211; must be convinced one way or another.</p>
<p>Thanks for commenting. <img src='http://georgedonnelly.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://georgedonnelly.com/libertarian/problem-with-intellectual-property-aggression/comment-page-1/#comment-9474</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 15:58:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://georgedonnelly.com/?p=2209#comment-9474</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t see how it could be a valid concept.  If I purchase a CD, it is now my property.  If I am not able to make copies of the CD (my property) we have a paradox of property rights.  

Ryan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t see how it could be a valid concept.  If I purchase a CD, it is now my property.  If I am not able to make copies of the CD (my property) we have a paradox of property rights.  </p>
<p>Ryan</p>
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		<title>By: George Donnelly</title>
		<link>http://georgedonnelly.com/libertarian/problem-with-intellectual-property-aggression/comment-page-1/#comment-9466</link>
		<dc:creator>George Donnelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 03:01:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://georgedonnelly.com/?p=2209#comment-9466</guid>
		<description>Hi Daniel, thanks for your comment.

Right on. And I like the BSD license better too.

Is intellectual property a valid concept? I&#039;m on the fence. But frankly I think it doesn&#039;t matter. The market can decide that. People who don&#039;t want to accept IP won&#039;t, and those who do, will. I agree with you that it is impossible to really enforce consistently, so inevitably IP will de facto cease to exist without the aggression of government behind it. And that&#039;s fine by me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Daniel, thanks for your comment.</p>
<p>Right on. And I like the BSD license better too.</p>
<p>Is intellectual property a valid concept? I&#8217;m on the fence. But frankly I think it doesn&#8217;t matter. The market can decide that. People who don&#8217;t want to accept IP won&#8217;t, and those who do, will. I agree with you that it is impossible to really enforce consistently, so inevitably IP will de facto cease to exist without the aggression of government behind it. And that&#8217;s fine by me.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Memenode</title>
		<link>http://georgedonnelly.com/libertarian/problem-with-intellectual-property-aggression/comment-page-1/#comment-9465</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Memenode</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 01:55:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://georgedonnelly.com/?p=2209#comment-9465</guid>
		<description>Great points. Aggression is the main culprit.

That said however I think intellectual property as it&#039;s commonly known is invalid too. There is one way you could argue for it if you &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.libervis.com/article/ideas_can_be_owned&quot;&gt;like I did here&lt;/a&gt;, but it involves some semantic modifications in language. Ever since writing that article though I found it simpler to just deny the possibility of owning ideas and information, but then emphasizing the fact that&lt;i&gt; ideas and information by their very nature cannot even exist without a medium and you &lt;b&gt;do&lt;/b&gt; own a medium, always.&lt;/i&gt;

So that&#039;s the trick. You create a song. First it&#039;s in your mind where the medium are your brain cells. Then it could be on your hard drive (another medium) and then it could be on rented server space online (another medium). You can&#039;t precisely claim to own the song itself anymore than you can claim ownership of a number, but since you own these mediums (and in the latter case have a rent contract) you decide how are these mediums to be used. You can decide to deny a download for instance unless the would be downloader agrees to your terms. And a promise is a contract.

But even so this differs greatly from how copyright licenses typically works, and of course that&#039;s due to aggression. If your downloader breaks a contract and gives it to Joe (provided terms are against copying to others) and Joe continues to share with others, Joe isn&#039;t the one liable, only the first downloader is because the contract was between him and you. But copyright says otherwise and thus calls for persecution of Joe and everyone else whom he shared with despite the fact that they had no relationship with the original author.

This is also why I think that, while certainly possible (you can have the contractor agree to a scary enough damages payment to deter copying), it would be more difficult to enforce draconian contracts in realm of information, digital works and software than with government aggression and why in a free market &quot;Open Source&quot; would probably thrive a lot more than today (and more so with BSD style contracts than viral GPL style).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great points. Aggression is the main culprit.</p>
<p>That said however I think intellectual property as it&#8217;s commonly known is invalid too. There is one way you could argue for it if you <a href="http://www.libervis.com/article/ideas_can_be_owned">like I did here</a>, but it involves some semantic modifications in language. Ever since writing that article though I found it simpler to just deny the possibility of owning ideas and information, but then emphasizing the fact that<i> ideas and information by their very nature cannot even exist without a medium and you <b>do</b> own a medium, always.</i></p>
<p>So that&#8217;s the trick. You create a song. First it&#8217;s in your mind where the medium are your brain cells. Then it could be on your hard drive (another medium) and then it could be on rented server space online (another medium). You can&#8217;t precisely claim to own the song itself anymore than you can claim ownership of a number, but since you own these mediums (and in the latter case have a rent contract) you decide how are these mediums to be used. You can decide to deny a download for instance unless the would be downloader agrees to your terms. And a promise is a contract.</p>
<p>But even so this differs greatly from how copyright licenses typically works, and of course that&#8217;s due to aggression. If your downloader breaks a contract and gives it to Joe (provided terms are against copying to others) and Joe continues to share with others, Joe isn&#8217;t the one liable, only the first downloader is because the contract was between him and you. But copyright says otherwise and thus calls for persecution of Joe and everyone else whom he shared with despite the fact that they had no relationship with the original author.</p>
<p>This is also why I think that, while certainly possible (you can have the contractor agree to a scary enough damages payment to deter copying), it would be more difficult to enforce draconian contracts in realm of information, digital works and software than with government aggression and why in a free market &#8220;Open Source&#8221; would probably thrive a lot more than today (and more so with BSD style contracts than viral GPL style).</p>
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